AppleLink APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG July 18, 1989 10:00 p.m. eastern time Topic: Getting Started for Novice Progammers and Announcment of Release of System Software 5.0 for the Apple IIGS Forum Leader: Dave Sugar (AFL Dyfet) AFL Dyfet We will be getting started here momentarilily, but we should give a chance for AFL Dyfet others to arrive first... AFL Dyfet I see we have incomming people still, so we will give this 1 more minute for AFL Dyfet late arrivals... AFL Dyfet Okay, I think we should be getting started...Good evening and welcome to the AFL Dyfet Apple II Development forum's tuesday night chat. Tonight's topic is 'getting AFL Dyfet started', a special conf. for novice programmers. We will be using PROTOCOL AFL Dyfet tonight starting now. This means if you have a question to ask, you must enter AFL Dyfet a '?' on a blank line, and if you wish to comment on the current question at AFL Dyfet hand, you must enter a '!' on a line by itself. I will call each of you in AFL Dyfet turn. But, before we get started tonight (so hold off on those '?' keys :), we AFL Dyfet have several special annoucements to make. For the first of these, I will be AFL Dyfet turning over the floor to Dave Lyons, who has some news many of you have been AFL Dyfet waiting to hear. GA Dave :) Dave Lyons "Summer" is here! System Software 5.0 is *shipping* now, so your dealers may Dave Lyons already have it. If they don't they should soon. Retail price is $49. Dave Lyons (Dealers are *allowed* but not required to give you free updates, without Dave Lyons the manual.) AFA Gary J (Yeah!) Coach101 Applause Applause Applause Furkle ? AFL Dyfet I know all of you are happy to hear this. In addition, we will be providing AFL Dyfet this update online as soon as it arrives. Also, we will have a new batch of AFL Dyfet technotes available in the near future... AFL Dyfet I think the GS/OS team deserves a lot of credit for what they have done in AFL Dyfet this short of time, but I do not see any members here offhand, so I guess Dave AFL Dyfet Lyons will have to convey our appreciation :) Dave Lyons (Post it! They read Let's Discuss.) AFL Dyfet Yes they do, and I'm sure they would appreciate the thanks...:) Dave Lyons Not just the GS/OS team, but the Finder/utilities team, the toolbox team, and Dave Lyons the printing team, too! AFL Dyfet Very true! AFL Marty (Is there an uploading team? :) AFL Dyfet :) AFL Dyfet Okay, is there anyone here who would like to add any comments on GS/OS's Windrider5 ? AFL Dyfet release at this point? AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe our first question is from Furkle, please go ahead with your AFL Dyfet question now... Furkle question has been answered, thanks AFL Dyfet Well, we aim to please :). I believe our next question is from Windrider. GA. Windrider5 Is it true that we will need more than technotes to understand all the changes Windrider5 in 5.0 Dave Lyons ! AFL Dyfet GA Dave! Dave Lyons Yes. Coach101 ? Dave Lyons The documentation you need will be available later this year from APDA; Dave Lyons hopefully this summer. AE PhilM ? Dave Lyons You can still use the old features without new documentation, of cours.e Coach101 -? Dave Lyons Some documentation will be sent to Apple Partners earlier than that, too. Dave Lyons (ga) AFL Dyfet Thank you Dave. Okay, I see Gary has a question to sneak in :)..GA Gary... AFA Gary J Will this be in the form of a toolbox reference update, or is there more? Dave Lyons ! AFL Dyfet GA Dave... Dave Lyons There will be more than one documentation product from APDA for 5.0; no Dave Lyons specific details are available now. ga AFA Gary J Thanks (and keep up the good work!) AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe our next question is from AE Phil. You may have the floor now. AE PhilM In 5.0 the docs say that the SF Manager now need 4 pages of ZP. One for itself Dave Lyons ! AE PhilM and three for the list manager. I never initialize the list manager in the AE PhilM eariler stuff I did...but it is working. How is that?? AFL Dyfet GA Dave... Dave Lyons Nope--some of the documentation was misleading; it is actually supposed to say Dave Lyons (and does, in some of the documentation) that SF needs 4 pages of *stack Dave Lyons space*, not direct page. You just have to make sure you have a lot of stack Dave Lyons space available when you make an SF call. SF takes care of starting up the AE PhilM OK...thanks Dave! It does use the list manager tho...right?? Dave Lyons List Manager for its own use. If you aren't using it directly, you don't need Dave Lyons to worry about starting it up; if you *are* using the List Manager yourself, AE PhilM Ok..thanks. AE PhilM done Dave Lyons you shoul still load and start it. (SF might not *always* start the list Dave Lyons manager up automatically!) ga AE PhilM I will then. done AFL Dyfet Okay, thanks Dave. For our late arrivals who missed the announcement, System AFL Dyfet Disk 5.0 is NOW SHIPPING :) HyperRam ? AFL Dyfet GA HyperRam... HyperRam How long do you expect it will take before we have it for download? :) AFA Gary J Sometime this Summer :) HyperRam Sometime. :) HyperRam GA Phoenix36 ? AFL Dyfet :)...basically as soon as we get our hot little hands on it over here :) AFL Dyfet I believe our next question is from Phoenix, GA Phoenix... Phoenix36 What makes 5.0 so much better than 4.0? AE PhilM ! AFL Dyfet Phil, was that a comment for Pheonix? GA Phil... Coach101 ? AE PhilM No..just wanted to say that AE will start shipping 5.0 on Vulcan and Sonic AE PhilM Blaster before the end of the week. That's all! Coach101 ! AFL Dyfet Thank you, Phil...As to Phoenix's question, that can take a long explanation... AFL Dyfet to put it simply, SPEED!!! Faster desktop with new improved and very optimized AFL Dyfet tools, faster disk I/O, etc etc :)...GA Coach... HyperRam ? Phoenix36 ! Coach101 Pick almost anything under 4.0 and it is faster under 5.0.... MUCH FASTER Coach101 GA AFL Dyfet GA Phoenix...you have the floor, after all :) Phoenix36 Speed is really worth the $49, because AWGS needs faster window management. Coach101 ! AFL Dyfet There is also a new and improved Finder to look forward to, which benifits well AFL Dyfet from the improved speed of the tools :). GA Coach... Coach101 One word of caution for Phoenix, Coach101 Do not go out to buy coffee and donuts when starting Appleworks-GS under 5.0! HyperRam LOL! Coach101 :) AFL Dyfet :)...Anyone else wish to add any further comments on System Software 5.0 at AFL Dyfet this time? JSchober "Wowwwwww..." HyperRam ? Phoenix36 ! AFL Dyfet Go Ahead Phoenix... AFL Vince just that it will be at your dealers by week's end. Phoenix36 With 5.0 on a hard disk all those 1 meg applications, should load like the Mac HyperRam ??? Phoenix36 i mean fast with TranswarpGS AFL Dyfet Your question is on record, HyperRam :)...And yes, the benifit in some AFL Dyfet situations is very much like or even faster than that found under 4.0 with a AFL Dyfet Transwarp GS, although there is nothing stopping you from gaining even more AFL Dyfet by having one with 5.0 :) AE PhilM ditto :) AFL Dyfet Well, I believe our next question is from Coach. You now have the floor... Coach101 Under 5.0, some applications (for example FINDER) remember the lower Coach101 case letters in my file names. How is this handled from a compatibility Coach101 issue with programs that may convert all lowercase letters to uppercase Coach101 letters before passing them on to GS/OS? GA Dave Lyons ! AFL Dyfet The case is not stored in the ProDOS filename itself, but in the old ProDOS AFL Dyfet version ID bytes found in each directory entry. ProDOS 8, for example, will AFL Dyfet still see filenames the way it always had, irregardless of how the case was set AFL Dyfet from GS/OS. GA Dave. Dave Lyons No handling is necessary, possible, or present...apps that convert pathnames to AFL Vince sounds like an old Appleworks trick to me.. :) Dave Lyons all uppercase before making GS/OS calls will always create filenames that are AFA Gary J Yep :) Dave Lyons all uppercase. All current FSTs ignore case, so it isn't a problem--it just Dave Lyons may look ugly. Dave Lyons (ga) Coach101 So, AFILE and afile are the same file on disk? AFL Dyfet I'm sure SOMEONE will come out with a utility to capitolize all your filenames AFL Dyfet properly :) Dave Lyons Yes, AFILE and afile are the same file on disk. I should have said AFA Parik ? AFA Gary J ugh :) (Verry punny :) AFA Gary J err...very Dave Lyons above that all current FSTs ignore case when matching filenames; Dave Lyons they *record* the case so that it comes back right later when you read the Dave Lyons directory. ga Coach101 Tanks... Im done... AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe our next question is from HyperRam. GA Hyper, you have the AFL Dyfet floor now... HyperRam I know this is a dumb question but does 5.0 spped up the 'screen' like in HyperRam games? HyperRam :) AFL Dyfet That depends...if they use toolset calls, yes... HyperRam BBL AFL Vince Ok, let's cut the FNs.. :) Dave Lyons ! AFL Dyfet GA Dave... Dave Lyons Games that already go right to the screen to do their animation will not be Dave Lyons sped up by 5.0. ga AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe our next question is from AFA Parik. You have the floor now... AFA Parik Does 5.0 splash the colors correctly on bootup? Is there any way we can make AFA Parik sure that apps don't stomp around $012000? Or does the loader automatically AFA Parik set nospecialmem when loading programs? Dave Lyons ! AFL Dyfet You can set the appropriate bits in the load files themselves....GA Dave, I'm AFL Dyfet sure you will have more to add :) Dave Lyons What's the "correct" way to splash colors correctly on bootup? Under 5.0, apps Dave Lyons are very unlikely to load in bank 1...if the system can avoid it, it doesn't Dave Lyons load them in special memory. Safest thing is to set the no-special-memory Dave Lyons attribute in your segment kinds. AFA Parik the betas running around keep the background color blue. Dave Lyons It's GQUIT that tries to avoid it, not the loader (there's a flag you pass to AFA Parik but what about programs we didn't write. I can't notice a speedup in DPII AFA Parik when booting from Orca/M. :( Dave Lyons InitialLoad saying if it's okay to load into special memory or not). Dave Lyons The bootup screen is light blue, just like the default desktop pattern is; it Dave Lyons is no longer supposed to match the border color. AFL Dyfet Okay, any further comments? AFA Parik ga AFL Dyfet Okay, the Q is empty, I see...I also see that we have drifted quite far away AFL Dyfet from what tonight's topic was originally scheduled :)...So I will throw the AFL Dyfet remaining time and questions open to any programming subject people wish to AFL Dyfet ask about...feel free to get your questions in the queue :) AFA Parik Dave, do you know if the docs for 5.0 are shipping to developers, or should we AFA Parik buy it from APDA? AE PhilM ! Dave Lyons ! AFL Dyfet GA Phil... TomH47 ? AFL Scott ? AE PhilM Developers are expected to get a mailing later this week...that's what I have AE PhilM been told. Dave Lyons You should definitely buy the APDA stuff when it becomes available. Some Dave Lyons preliminary stuff is being sent to all Partners soon. AFA Parik ga Coach101 !? AFL Vince Do you know if APDA has the toolbox update reference, dave? Dave Lyons I don't think they have any 5.0 documentation yet. AFL Dyfet I don't believe they have it available yet... AE PhilM ! AFL Dyfet GA Coach... Coach101 Whats the difference between a Developor and a Partner (pay $600+ Coach101 and get a deferred mailing?)? GA Dave Lyons ! (really Matt in disguise) AFL Dyfet That was a sneaky question, Coach :)...GA Dave... AFL Dyfet (or Matt :) Dave Lyons He said "partners" (meaning people who currently receive Developer Price Lists Dave Lyons ) since we don't know if Associates will get it or not. Partners will. GA. AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe Phil had a comment...GA Phil... AE PhilM APDA does NOT have any 5.0 stuff yet....I called today about just that! Coach101 Ok, I was thoroughly confused and making {poor} joke! Not a complaint! AE PhilM done AFL Dyfet Okay...I believe our next question is from TomH. Go ahead, Tom... TomH47 I am currently teaching myself TML Pascal. Is it a good language? If not TomH47 could you recommend? Dave Lyons ! AFL Vince Is TML good, or is Pascal good? TomH47 What I should go to TomH47 Ok, is it a useful language AFL Dyfet First, Dave, GA...I know Vince will have something to add after you :) Dave Lyons I wrote DIcEd (a usable icon editor) completely in TML Pascal standalone; so Dave Lyons it is definitely "good." I can't really compare it with any other Pascals, Dave Lyons since I haven't done a nontrivial amount of work in any of them. It does have Dave Lyons some annoying aspects, but I expect they will be cleared up when TML Pascal II Dave Lyons ships. ga TomH47 Thank you AFL Vince We do have our share of bugs in Pascal I. AFL Vince However, Pascal II has been setup for the novice/intermediate level programer. All of the AFL Vince resource construction for 5.0 is done with a graphic based point and click style editor. After AFL Vince you create those structures all you need do to get your programs running is put in the "glue" routines AFL Vince We're also running it on a Pascal testing suite of over 300 programs that test all aspects of a Pacal AFL Vince compiler before we release it, so I dont think you'll find too many of the annoying things Dave TomH47 Then it is a good time to be learning, right. Note: Ordered TML II recently AFL Vince was refering to in this particular version. AFL Vince Also, we're not planning an APW compatible product to go along with Pascal II for those that are AFL Vince interested. GA AFL Vince Anytime is a good time to be learning... :) TomH47 ;) AFL Vince I learn every day, ask Dave, he's been giving me some lessons recently.. :) AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe our next, and possibly last, question for this evening is from AFL Dyfet AFL Scott. GA Scott... AFL Scott APW version 2.... When is it due? Or is it even due, yet? Coach101 Fall :) AFL Dyfet Well, unfortunately, Tim is not here to defend the honour of the APW team, but AFL Scott and... AFL Dyfet fall is what I have heard also... AFL Scott Does MPWGS do linking, too? AFL Scott Done. AFL Vince MPW GS works well, and yes, it links and compiles resources. AFA Parik so we can't express programs until fall? ack. AFL Scott Worried more about linking large programs not resources at this time. Thanks! AFL Dyfet Okay, do we have any more questions or comments for this evening? AE PhilM OA-F and OA-G are too close together...need to learn Davorak. Coach101 Congratulations to the 5.0 team on a job WELL DONE!!!! AFA Gary J Amen! AFL Dyfet Apple's excellant operating system :) TomH47 Congrats Team AFL Dyfet (or should that be excellant system software :) AE PhilM ? AFL Dyfet GA Phil... AE PhilM The MIDI stuff in 5.0 is still not 100% with the 6850 driver are there any AE PhilM plans to correct the problems?? AE PhilM It's MUCH better tho... AE PhilM done AFA Parik (btw Phil - is AA now shipping? puhleeze say yes! :) AE PhilM No Parik....still battaling with 5.0 MIDI tools....it's working about 99% AE PhilM But once in a while it looses a byte and gets totally messed up. AE PhilM I'm not sure what more I can do....???? AFA Parik i'll beta test it for you. :) AE PhilM Same problem with MS JR. AE PhilM So I'm pretty sure it's not my code. AFL Dyfet Well, I guess we will have to wait and see what happens there, Phil... AFA Parik well - have fun figuring it out Phil. We're counting on you. go go go and all AFA Parik that stuff. Coach101 See you all next week.....